DKC Atlas Forum

[Qyzbud]

Cody is exactly right. No shortcuts here, please.

Back before I knew what was possible, I started to do what you're describing, just to fill things in... but I've since redone all of those previous maps for the sake of 100% accuracy. Messing around with collage techniques from other levels is unnecessary. If you guys are willing to do the screenshotting and layout as you have been doing, that's great. Only put in what you can actually see, and I'll use my techniques to do the rest. Cheers!

By the way- Cody, excellent work. You didn't need to prove yourself, as I know what a stickler for accuracy you are.

Stone, Cody, and anyone else who wants to help with mapping:
Feel free to take on any levels you choose, just let me know as you start, so I can make a note in my first post. It would be a shame for two people to invest hours of their time in doing the exact same level!

[Cody]

I know I should have completed it, but I would be thankful if someone started finishing the above (or at least used it as a backup source). Meanwhile, I'll start working on the following:

DKC2:
Krockhead Klamber, Gusty Glade, Jungle Jinx, Black Ice Battle

DKC3:
Lemguin Lunge, Creepy Caverns, Criss Cross Cliffs

[Qyzbud]

That's a lot to take on at once... but I'll put your name on these so that others know. Advise me if you change your mind, okay? I'd be happy to continue your Demolition Drainpipe layout (above) if nobody snaffles it up in the next week.

Edit: Okay, I've updated the first post and put your name next to those levels.

[Cody]

Of course I can do them all, Qyz; I'd love to. In fact, I would also like to do Tearaway Toboggan and Tyrant Twin Tussle, since I recently discovered a code that allows me to do the said levels to near-perfection.

[Stone]

A few posts earlier I have already said that I'll begin with Topsail Trouble in DKC2. And I'm starting now (oh, just have read my PM's now ^^)

You can easily fill in fitting pieces in areas you can only see half the brambles by using just the same block of an other level-piece.

I should have written "You could easily fill in" because I haven't done that. all you can see in my Screech map is 100% visable in normal gameplay

And Cody does have to much time, trying to do all those maps
Watch out for those things in Jungle Jinx, a screenshottler might get trouble with those bit....

There are probably many more transparent pixels in the main layer

[Qyzbud]

Ah, yes. Stone raises an important issue; In certain level types (such as DKC2's jungle levels, including Jungle Jinx), some pixels in the terrain are the same colour as the 'absolute background' (or BG Layer 0) of the level. This means that when the background of each screenshot is removed, so are those terrain pixels of matching colour. This is a bad thing, and I have spent many hours ensuring that my maps include every pixel they are meant to.

Getting around this problem is a rather complicated issue. This problem lead me to a program called vSNES, which extracts graphic layers from savestates (among many other marvelous functions). Rather than writing up a guide to explain how vSNES works, I'll simply provide this link this link, and give advice whenever it is needed. I do highly recommend vSNES, it's an amazingly useful tool.

Alternatively, you could just do things as you normally do, and I can use your rough terrain as a guide (instead of actually building onto it). Even if I just use your screenshot layout for reference, it would still save me a lot of time, and since I'm going to be using vSNES anyhow, that's probably the easiest option. Of course, you may enjoy learning to use vSNES, as it can do more than just this stuff...

[Stone]

It would also help changing the absolute background to something like the light blue I've used in the screenshots. Or the blue in Topsail Trouble's absolute background. (the level I'm working on now)
One PAR-code would make things so easy, if there is one for that problem, of course

Edit (1.75 hours later): Something new:


If you climb up very fast on the top left, you can see 1 pixel height more than usual for a short time. Without this extra pixel height my map is perfectly divided by 256. Meow!

[Stone]

Qyzbud, my next DKC2 target is Rattle Battle. After that, I would like to do Mudhole Marsh and Rambi Rumble
I'm not that familiar with DKC3 yet, you see

I would also like to do Gangba..., ähh Gangplank Galley. But this constant palette swapping is awful. Any ideas what to do?

And what about the Bonus Rooms of each level? They are not that hard to do, do you want to include them?

Woah, I've never noticed that:

[Cyclone]

I think it would be good if the bonus rooms were done to, and it would make sense as a guide because some of them can be a bit confusing at first(Glimmer's Galleon).

Would anyone care to make a short tutorial on how to to extract the maps in the most accurate and efficient way? That may help this project go by quicker and more people may start helping.

[Simion32]

Would anyone care to make a short tutorial on how to to extract the maps in the most accurate and efficient way? That may help this project go by quicker and more people may start helping.

I know how to do this, BUT it would require a decent documentation of DKC2/DKC3. I am going make a tool to do just this. However, it may (at first) require a bit of advanced hacking to get ROM data/offsets. Short tutorial? I don't think so.

[Stone]

Qyzbud has posted a tutorial on the first site, but the only ways are using screenshots with disabled unnecessary layers and this special programm Qyzzy mentioned.
I'm not that confident about doing water levels, because they have this waving effect, without an proper layer extraction this can't be done perfectly.

Oh, it would be cool if you could select levels just like in the game: Just a click on Diddy's head in the DKC2 world map to open the Gangplank map. Then click on the level you like and it opens in a new window. That would be cool and gamelike

[Qyzbud]

Good stuff, Stone. First post has been updated to reflect your recent rough terrain sumbission and future level plans. Nice idea about the game-style map navigation... I've considered that myself, so let's see how it goes on the site, eh?

Bonus areas will definitely be part of the project, but I see the main levels as first priority. Perhaps the bonuses would be a good start for anyone who would be otherwise overwhelmed with the size/difficulty of a regular level (or those with less powerful hardware/software). I have already completed maps of the four Animal Token bonus areas in DKC, but other than that, I've just been focussing on the main level areas.

Simion, each new tool you create seems to revolutionise whatever I'm working on.

[Stone]

Hehe, you could use that DYDDY-code room to enter those Animal Bonus rooms by clicking

[Cyclone]

That's cool Simion! Any plans for a DKC1 map extraction tool?

The reason I brought up the tut was because at first glance reading the forums I have no idea how to extract the maps from DK1 the way you guys are doing it. I haven't actually tried though and seems pretty straightforward but I just thought a simple tut on the steps required to extract the maps would be nice for other people to have to.

[Cody]

If you're comfortable using Paint for your mappings, I can create a tutorial via text and video.

Edit: Black Ice Battle... COMPLETE!

[Qyzbud]

I have actually begun to put together a rough guide to the processes of level mapping, the WIP of this is in my first post. My guide is geared towards users of Photoshop CS2 (should be good for you, Cyclone), but I'm sure the techniques are easy to adapt for use in other applications. Cody, your Paint tute would be useful for other users, I'm sure. Together, our guides will hopefully cover the needs of all interested users.

Black Ice Battle looks good! That's probably one of the most 'geometric' looking levels in the trilogy, I'd bet.

[Kowbrainz]

Just want to say well done guys; the dedication in this thread is amazing.

Keep up all the good work!

[Cyclone]

hmm did I miss that guide under the spoiler or did you just add now? oops

That step-by-step guide is perfect. Thanks Qyzbud! Will you also talk about the camera codes, the freeze code and how they tie in with the mapping?

Once I know what I’m doing I may pitch in and make a map or two.

[Cody]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=d7VO2PSrYso

I use my desktop (1680 x 1050) to my advantage, but the above is generally how I do it.

[Cyclone]

Good vid Cody. Thanks!

I was thinking it would be nice to have the background layers as well. Maybe not for the guides but as visual reference or for purists like me . I doubt it’s an easy task to merge the background and foreground layers after you take the screenshots. There are also special effect layers to consider to… It would be very easy if the alpha channels were still intact. Any ideas?

[Simion32]

That's cool Simion! Any plans for a DKC1 map extraction tool?

I'll most likely do one for DKC, but since Qyz already has all of the DKC maps, DKC2 and DKC3 deserve priority. After those are done, I'll work on one for DKC.

[Qyzbud]

Cyclone, I began that guide only a day or so ago, so it hasn't been around for long. I plan to expand it to include basically all I know. Eventually.

I have added a pixel-acurate map of Jungle Hijinxs to the first post (see it here), and have left the old version available for comparison. As you can see, most moving objects are in slightly different positions... everything should be exactly right now, thanks to Simion's Z-S patch.

Comments on any techniques I've used in either version are much appreciated.

I'll edit in some more thoughts here in a little while... or post again if there are replies!

[Cody]

Out of curiosity, how did you discover the beginning frame for the enemies and items?

[Stone]

Background layers aren't that hard to add Cyclone. Most of those backgrounds are 256x256 pieces, you just have to combine them like this:

and use those Photoshop-possibilities to add the layer as the background. Then something like this comes out:

Special effects layers are a different matter, of course. (honey foreground in beehive levels, water effect...)

Sorry for rereposting the wallpaper, but I know that things posted earlier are easily overseen

[Qyzbud]

Out of curiosity, how did you discover the beginning frame for the enemies and items?

Primitively, at first. My current methods are a little more precise. At first, I would just take a screenshot when the very first pixels of the sprite came on screen, and would then match up those pixels (assuming they were of the 'initial frame') with the same frame which ocurred again upon the animation looping. Oh my, that is the most confusing wording ever. Anyhow, my method now is to stand close enough that the sprite is not yet in game memory, but will be if I move any closer... then I use my camera control code to 'warp' the view across. That way, the sprite is displayed in full as soon as it loads- often before it even has its palette assigned! This is a pretty sure-fire way to tell what the first frame is. Turns out that my first method was quite accurate, too... just less technical.

Oh, for those that checked out my Jungle Hijinxs map before- I've uploaded a fixed version now (same link, above). I had shifted the secret blue life balloons a bit to the right by mistake while ensuring they were shown in the correct frame and z-depth. All should be just right now.

[Cody]

Qyz, you may have to discard my Squeals on Wheels and Black Ice Battle maps...mine might be slightly imprecise when it comes to colors:



As you can see above, the SNES9x screenshot method displays colors more lightly than when directly played on an emulator. I'm not sure which is the most accurate, though it seems that you and Stone have pictures that match the colors displayed directly from the emulator; i.e. the ones that match the 'Prt Scrn' method.

[BlueTronic]

They... look... exactly... the same? Lighter colors? How are there lighter colors? I use screenshots over prt scrn because it's a lot less of a hassle, and they probably come out in better resolution.

[Simion32]

Diddy looks a slight bit darker on the PrintScreen method. Id say that screen shots directly from the emulator are the most accurate. Sometimes Paint can mess around with the colors, even if you save it it as a PNG. I'm not sure why this happens, though.

EDIT: It's possible that your computer screen displays incorrect colors on the emulator, even though it's very slightly different.

[Qyzbud]

Screenshots are preferred. Print screen is a more cumbersome and less reliable approach. The difference between those is only slight, but it certainly exists. As others have said, the print screen image comes out slightly darker all over. It's the kind of thing we *could* fix with a brightness filter, but that's not the DKC Atlas way. Unless we can be sure it's pixel-perfect... it's not finished. Of course, even an off-colour layout is still valuable as a guide. Most of my finished map terrain is extracted directly from savestates, not from screenshots at all. These two techniques match up perfectly together though, so don't worry - consistency and precision is kept in check.


Okay, I've got a few techniques I'd like to have opinions on.

Hidden banana indicators
Firstly, I'm liking the idea of indicating the locations of hidden banana bunches. The way I plan to have the on-site maps displayed will allow things like this to be displayed optionally, and I'll have them 'off' by default. Those who saw my original Jungle Hijinxs map will remember that I had then displayed the left-most graphic as the indicator, but I've toyed with some variations...

Hidden banana bunch indicators (possible techniques)

jh-map-snip4.png (29.01 KiB) Viewed 192710 times

Having the banana bunch as part of the indicator graphic seems like a good idea, as it helps clarify the meaning of the mark. I like the idea of using the starburst as an indicator, as it is seen when the bananas are uncovered, and is in the exact same place each time, so it feels highly accurate and appropriate to me. Any other suggestions are welcome, though.


Bonus entrance labels
Marking bonus room entrances - be they barrels or tunnels - is a must for these maps... but how should it be done? I actually hand drew/wrote this label, and edited it digitally to make it look a little nicer and fit the map's style a bit better.

Bonus area entrance indicator

jh-map-snip3.png (27.94 KiB) Viewed 192709 times

I'm not all that sure though, I'd rather use in-game graphics as much as possible for this sort of thing. I'm thinking it would work well to have #1, #2 etc typed next to that label to indicate the first bonus, second bonus, etc. per level. Comments on this technique/idea would be great, cheers.


Level info/disclaimer text
This is the current formatting for the level info, credit, copyright etc. text tag which I'll attach to each map:

Level/map information text

jh-map-snip2.png (25.08 KiB) Viewed 192708 times

I will probably try other fonts/formatting/info/layouts, but for now I like this look. Comments, please!


Jungle 'night' effect
Lastly, any feedback on the 'night' effect would be appreciated.

Night effect at level's end

jh-map-snip1.png (121.79 KiB) Viewed 192708 times

I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not, but it provides information and (in my opinion) looks nice, so I'm rather happy with it.


Any comments and suggestions are awesome, so unleash your inner critic!

[Stone]

You need some comments and suggestions? I have some

About hidden banana indicators:
I like the third indicator the most, because doesn't take away that much level graphics like #4.
Of course, bananas are the only things that come out frequently, so maybe indicator #1 would be acceptable. But I like those bananas!
Chose #2 or #3.

I don't have any good ideas on those bonus area indicators, but numbers are necessary especially if we want to link them to bonusroom maps.

The night effect is very good, something that has to be left in the map.
It is easy and effective contrary to the Gangplank Galley-problem I will face sometime.
The light gets constantly darker, something that could look very odd and imprecise.

[cfh]

I say #4 for the banana indicator, just looks best to me.

I like the current way of marking the bonuses... makes it seem like a map that has been marked up by an adventurer who stumbled across the bonus. Fits the site.

I also like the info/disclaimer, looks very professional and is darker so it isn't so noticeable that it distracts from the map.

I think the night effect is great, how'd you do it?

So not much criticism from me, I guess

[Cyclone]

Most of my finished map terrain is extracted directly from savestates, not from screenshots at all.

Savestates? How exactly did you extract the maps using savestates? I tried using a tile extractor before and I needed to use savestates to find the right colour pallet. Is this kinda what your doing? I have been wanting to extract maps for sometime now and the screenshot way doesn't seem as perfect, you know once in awhile there’s going to be mistakes.


- I like #4 for the banana bunch indicator. I also like #2 because its smaller but it might not be as noticeable on the full scale map.
- I liked the bonus label. It was one of the first things I noticed on the map. If you add #s to it I think it might make it a little messy looking but I think it's an important thing to add so try it and see.
- The disclaimer text looks great to me.
- The graduation effect I think could be spread out a bit more. It just 'feels' a bit too abrubt.

[BlueTronic]

#2 for the indicator because the starburst is in front of the banana bunch, so you can see the starburst better and can tell it's not a banana bunch easier.

[Cody]

Qyz, could you please PM me the camera control PAR codes for DKC2 and DKC3? If I had these codes, it would save me loads of time completing and perfecting the maps!

Edit: I take the lack of PM and no response as a "no", which is perfectly fine with me. I completely understand.

[BlueTronic]

I want 'em too! Along with any others you know.

[Kowbrainz]

Feedback time:

Hidden Banana Bunches - the last one looks the best in my opinion; having the bananas within the starburst is a lot more helpful and lets people realise what you're trying to show easier. It might also be nice to keep it constant as we go through the entire trilogy, so perhaps have invisible items portrayed this way in later games? Either that or show them as transparent in their original positions, whatever works.


Bonus locations are fine; I'm just worried about DKC2's cannonballs and how you'd show where one is when an enemy has one (eg that Kloak you have to wait for in the swamp level; go back past the no rambi sign, wait for it to throw another barrel then bash it with the thing for the cannonball).


The text for the level is cool, too; perhaps do the height of the level in 'metres' as well for comparison between levels?

And yeah, the day-night effect is pretty cool... but what about levels like Ropey Rampage? Would you gradually make it sunny and stop raining at the end? :/

[Qyzbud]

...what about levels like Ropey Rampage? Would you gradually make it sunny and stop raining at the end?

Yeah, something like that.


Thanks for all the feedback, I like everyone's suggestions. We can change any of these techniques at any time, but it's great to hear what y'all think about my current ideas. Kowz, the Kloaks (and multi-layered treasure chests) are gonna be a heckuva challenge to map attractively... I'll deal with that later.

And yeah, design continuity throughout the trilogy is something to strive for.

[Kowbrainz]

Hehe... that pic looks awesome and really weird at the same time.

[Stone]

Want some Rattle Battle?

I don't know how to add the Rattle room adequately and I hope everything is right.
Have fun!

[Qyzbud]

Top stuff there, Stone. Thanks.

I have been working on some quite exciting map stuff, so I'll share it here soon...

[Cody]

There were two bits that I couldn't get the camera to fix on: The upper right corner of the level (above the exit), and the upper left bit before the second Squawks crate. Other than that, I think it turned out pretty good! If you see any oddities in the bramble patches, note that Rare designed it that way and wasn't an error on my part.

I also had to get rid of the gray backgrounds since the PNG file wouldn't host on ImageShack unless it was smaller. Sorry about that.

[Stone]

Nice map, I like Bramble maps, you know
When the editor is complete, we should work out a way to connect all bramble levels into one big level

I've started working on Run Rambi Run, but I don't have much time at the moment. Maybe in 2-4 days I will post my map.

Edit: Now I'm past the Rambi transformation. But progression is slow at the moment.

[Stone]

Finally some Rum Bambi Rum:
Now the error is no more.

I've gotten a bit lazy at the end, so maybe I haven't seen everything I could have seen. (ehh, is this grammatically right?)

If you want to play "where are the errors?", here's the old one (you need Photoshop or very very good eyes ):


And don't forget updating the roughly done maps list (Cody's Bramble Scramble, etc.), Qyzbud

[Qyzbud]

Excellent stuff again, guys. I've updated the checklist now. Cheers, Stone.

I wanted my next post here (this one, as it happens) to include something special that I've been working on, but it's not quite ready yet. It's an important step for the mapping project, and for DKC Atlas in general, so hopefully I'll have it ready pretty soon.

[Kowbrainz]

So, when did you plan on adding those practically completed maps from DKC to the main site, Qyz?

[Qyzbud]

Well, very soon, I hope. The first may be up this weekend. I'm working out how to have it displayed... but perhaps the best move would be to keep it simple for now, and expand/refine when time permits, down the track. I suppose if I at least get a basic layout up and running, that will inspire even more mapping momentum.

I'll put something up here as soon as possible.

[Cyclone]

Yea keep it simple. You will probably end up changing it anyways to make it look better and i'm sure people will have suggestions or comments

I am thinking on mapping the bonus rooms for DK1. Is that ok?

[Cody]

And if so, can I do all of DKC2's bonus rooms?

I've been working on the other levels simultaneously and they're all about 40% complete. I can use a break and work on bonuses! I insist!

[Jomingo]

Can I watch them complete all the bonus rooms and wish that I had talent? Please, I need a break from doing nothing! I insist!

[Qyzbud]

Okay, Jomingo... since you asked nicely.

As for you fellows doing the bonus rooms- sure. Sounds great. Don't burn yourselves out, though... There are quite a few bonus areas in both games.